Finding Hope in Future Excitement | Johnny Crowder

Deana Brown Mitchell: 00:00:00

Hi, everyone, it's Deena at the Realize Foundation. And I'm here today with Johnny Crowder, who is the founder and CEO of Cope Notes, which you're going to hear more about. It's a fabulous organization, and a great tool for mental health. And, you know, for all of us who struggle daily, in fact, I just got my coke note for today, about 30 minutes ago. So it's awesome. Thanks so much. So we're gonna talk today? Well, I guess I should tell you guys, if you need to find us were realized foundation.org. Or you can just Google hashtag save life challenge. And we can, you can find us there. And we have all kinds of videos that are cataloged on our YouTube channel. And we're hopefully gonna have them on our website page soon. But you can find any of them there. And here are at least conversations that may help you have conversation with someone in your life. So I want to get started today, we're talking about lived experience. So people who have experienced suicidal ideation and kind of understand what that looks like for people who have never experienced it, and how you can reach out to somebody or support somebody in your life that's going through that. So, Johnny, I want you to tell everyone a little bit more about yourself. That would be awesome.

Johnny Crowder: 00:01:23

Yeah. Well, people listening are probably like, Oh, I'm assuming he's a lived experience person, if that's what they're talking about. Yes, you're correct. That is Hardy Boys level deduction there. So my name is Johnny. I grew up with a lot of different mental health diagnoses. I was in treatment for many years, I went to school for psychology and started doing advocacy work. But all of it really, I think, peer support has become such an important component of what I do now. Like I run a company called cope notes, which you guys can look up. And we provide daily mental health support via text message, but the whole idea came from peer support. And the whole idea that someone with lived experience with mental illness can provide value, even if they don't have, you know, a doctorate

Deana Brown Mitchell: 00:02:14

or something. Yeah, so true. Very true. So I want to ask you a question about your own journey. And that would be like, at what age did you start having suicidal ideation?

Johnny Crowder: 00:02:29

I can't remember a specific age, but I remember. I mean, it was definitely an elementary school. It was definitely very, very young. By the time I got to middle school, it was really bad. Elementary School, probably early elementary school is probably when it started.

Deana Brown Mitchell: 00:02:47

And how did that how did that show up? For you?

Johnny Crowder: 00:02:51

It was in a lot of my, I would write a lot and draw a lot. And it would manifest a lot in my creative endeavors. But also, just in my general thoughts, it was, it always felt like a viable option, or in some ways, a solution to what I was feeling, which is very misguided in retrospect, but at the time, it was almost always top of mind. Like I could be watching Air Bud. And thinking in the back of my mind, like, well, you know,

Deana Brown Mitchell: 00:03:24

so did that get changed as you got older, and how that showed up?

Johnny Crowder: 00:03:31

It got a lot more severe. And it kept me from being as social as I would have liked to be. I started becoming a lot more reclusive, and unfortunately, becoming more plan oriented. Rather than having it be this like vacuous, vague idea started actually taking shape, which is very unsettling to think about, like now. So I'm 29 to think about somebody in middle school having active plans. I'm like, oh, no, that's heartbreaking. But for me, it was like, a Tuesday.

Deana Brown Mitchell: 00:04:09

Yeah, I feel like teen suicide has been a huge topic lately. And that's why I wanted you to kind of touch on that. Because the town I live in now, I just moved back here. We had a junior in high school who just died recently. And so we had a gathering at the library to talk to parents about how do you how do you talk to your parents about how are your children about this? And how much do you say and depending on what age they are, and all we had all these conversations? So I'm wondering, like, at what point did your mom understand what was going on? And did you tell her did she see signs? How did that

Johnny Crowder: 00:04:53

I definitely didn't like sit down with my mom one morning and be like, Hey, Mom, I'd like to talk to you about What I'm feeling that didn't happen. I wasn't that kind of kid. But probably, I think around when I was 14, so probably height, first year of high school like freshman, sophomore in high school was when it got so bad that I was voluntold to attend treatment to avoid a Baker Act. So it was, I would say it was probably noticeable when I was in middle school, but I think freshman year in high school was when it was so bad that I, I was losing my ability to function and treatment became like, mandatory.

Deana Brown Mitchell: 00:05:36

How did you how did you feel about treatment at first? Was it something you wanted to do? Because you thought it would help? Or was it something you wanted to run away from?

Johnny Crowder: 00:05:46

No, I had the worst attitude ever. It's so funny to work in mental health now, because I back then you couldn't pay me to talk about it. It was, you know, I was convinced that I was such a special case that no one could help me that nothing that anybody could do could ever make a difference. I I felt so dismal about my circumstances. So I felt like treatment was a waste of time, a waste of money. And I was like, oh, all these people are deluded into thinking that they can help me. So I was a I use the term in quotes, I was a problem client. For many years, it was it was challenging for me to get my self stigma low enough to actually become an active participant in my treatment.

Deana Brown Mitchell: 00:06:31

Yeah, I can relate to that. So what what changed? I know that you are a musician, and you can talk about that if you want. But was that something that helped you in your high school years, or did that come later?

Johnny Crowder: 00:06:49

Music was like one of the only things that helped me during that period of my life. So I would write a lot, I played guitar a lot. And then I actually started playing concerts when I was 13. I just turned 16. So that became like a huge source of relief. But even just attending concerts, like going to concerts in eighth grade, ninth grade, 10th grade. And just being around art, it, there was something very healing about it. And I think part of me wanted that to be hit. I was like, Oh, just do I'll just have music, and then I won't have to go to treatment, or I won't have to take medication or like, I wanted that to be the answer to everything. But it's kind of like saying, you know, ice cream has calories, and I need calories to live. So why don't I just eat ice cream all the time? It's like, No, you need to add some other stuff, too.

Deana Brown Mitchell: 00:07:42

Yeah, that's a really good point. Music is something that helps me immensely as well. And I know that I read an article recently about you and your music. And I was super excited to see that. And also how it how it kind of plugs into a ministry for you, and how I would love to hear more about that, and how that came about. And if that was something that was always part of your life, or something that came later, and how you incorporate it to reach other people through your music.

Johnny Crowder: 00:08:21

Are you asking like from a faith standpoint? So definitely not in my life for forever. But I was. So I am like a lot of people where I grew up in an abusive household that claimed to be Christian. So I like learned all the wrong things about Christianity. It was like we went to my family went to a Catholic church. And I was just like, Oh, if this is what Christianity is, I don't want any part of it. It was it just felt dangerous and fake. And I misunderstood a lot of it. And then I realized as I got older, like, keep in mind, I went way to the other side of the spectrum. So I was in a death metal band, and we had, you know, kind of grams and animal bones and candles. And you know, it was like, I just went to the other end of the spectrum. And then I realized after years of really, really thinking about it, and trying to you know, read about Eastern philosophy and ethics and other religions and stuff. I was like trying to figure out the whole God thing. And I realized through literally years of reading and introspection that I was just angry at Christians and the church. I wasn't actually angry at God. I just was like, misinformed. So I came. I basically met God like seven years ago, six years ago. And that was pretty life changing. So now it's cool because no one thinks I'm a Christian because of like the type of music that We make or because I work in tech or because of how I look like you can name any reason that people think that I'm just atheist or agnostic. And then when people find out I'm a Christian, they're like, oh, no, like, I know, I'm just as surprised as you are. I did everything I could to not become a Christian.

Deana Brown Mitchell: 00:10:20

I just asked that, because it's a big part of my life. And when I saw the the interview with you, recently, and there were some, some fans that were talking about this and how much it meant to them. So I thought it was important. So what would you what would you say to, you know, younger kids, adult people, or parents that are dealing with suicide ideation? And what what would you what advice would you give, I guess, first parents, if it's someone that was in your shoes, you know, in middle school or high school, that are that are dealing with this, and they don't know how to talk to their parents about it. The parents don't know how to approach them, like, what would you say to that situation?

Johnny Crowder: 00:11:04

To wait, who am I speaking to the parent or the child?

Deana Brown Mitchell: 00:11:07

I think we should talk to both. So whichever you would like to talk to you first?

Johnny Crowder: 00:11:14

Well, on the kids side, I think it's really important to help the child understand that they're not the first child in the universe to experience this. And they while they are unique, they are not so unique, that they're the first person in the history of humanity, like billions and billions of people to ever face what they're facing. I think relieving that sense of isolation can be pretty important, especially from the parent side, like you want to, you don't want to pester them, right? You don't want to hit him up, like Good morning, have you thought about suicide today, which is literally something my mom had done for maybe four, because she just wanted to like, stay on top of everything. But I would say for the child, just know that this is something that people experienced, you have friends that have sprained their ankles, you have friends that have had chickenpox. This is one of those things. That is unfortunate, you know, no one is excited when they get chickenpox, but it's something that happens. And it's something that you need to deal with. And just reminding them that this is something that other people have experienced, and then reminding them that there is a lot of life ahead of them. And things can get better. Like when I was in sixth grade, you could tell me, oh, you know, next year, you're going to be so much happier, and I go screw you. There's no way it's impossible. So breaking that preconceived notion that things will only get worse, I think just painting a picture of like, what would next year look like? If it was better? Just imagine on I'm not saying it's gonna be better? I don't know, I can't read the future. But imagine it like, what does that look like? And is it from a parent's side of things, I would want to first of all, encourage parents to like, entertain the idea that it's not entirely their fault. Because if you feel guilty, when you're communicating with your child about suicidal ideation, it's going to come off, it's going to affect the, it's going to pollute the conversation. So you need as best you can to not go into it thinking like I'm such a bad parent, I screwed up. Don't come in with that baggage, because it will damage your communication with that child. And also, if you can, as a parent, keep bringing up positive things about the future. Because I've literally postponed my own death by my own hands. Because I wanted to hear an album that was going to come out in a few months. I'm like, Ah, well, I don't want to die before that record comes out, it's gonna be such a good record. So everybody has stuff to look forward to. And if they don't, if they have nothing to look forward to help your child find something. Oh, want to be great when you're when you're able to drive. Want to be great for you just to be able to go to the beach with your friends and they go, oh, man, I'm gonna get my permit pretty soon. I don't want to shoot that's gonna be a lot of freedom, like help them picture future things that will be better than what they're experiencing right now. Because it's an excuse to stick around.

Deana Brown Mitchell: 00:14:27

That's a really good point. Thank you for sharing that. It sometimes, like you said, it's hard to get out of your own way. You know, especially as a parent who has a child is going through something that you can't control. And you can fix. You know, it's hard to it's hard to go into that without without some kind of baggage. Like you said,

Johnny Crowder: 00:14:49

I'll say this. The reason I can say this so clearly is because I don't have any kids. So I'm making it sound super easy because I've never done it. I understand that it's more challenge. definitely what I'm saying, but also give yourself some credit, because sometimes people will hear me give a keynote or something like, Oh, why didn't I do that? Or I feel so stupid. It's like, Well, I'm not in your position. I'm on the outside. Like, it's like, when you watch a football game, you're like, how come? You didn't throw it over there? Yeah, it's wide open, these guys are blind. It's because you're not in that person's position. So the only reason I can speak into that type of situation is because I've been the child. I've never been the parent, I don't know exactly what you guys are facing firsthand. I just know, because I saw my mom go through it. That's it.

Deana Brown Mitchell: 00:15:36

Right? Right. And I don't have children, either. I have stepchildren that I met when they were seven and 10. And now they're 26 and 29. How did that happen? But, you know, it's, it has been a challenge. Because, one, they're, they're younger, and I'm older, and I'm trying to figure out how to help them. But number two, I'm not the real mom. So like, I haven't been there since day one. It so that makes it harder to and so for all those step parents out there that was for you. I think that, you know, part of part of relating is, is just, and I say this all the time up to everybody. But it's like, people when they're in this in this stage of ideation, it's like, depending on what level it is, sometimes they don't see anything else around them, they don't see anything, but that it's just pain. And that's all they know. And they don't know that anyone cares. And I know that, you know, like, in my own situation, I knew my family loved me. But in that moment, I didn't feel like I mattered. I didn't feel like anybody would miss me. And I think that's the biggest point that people can understand is like, people can't see through this pain they're in to reality sometimes. And so if you, if if a parent, a friend of spouse, whoever it is, if you can just make them feel like you're there for support, even if it's silence, even if you just watch a movie or listen to music. You don't have to say anything, because sometimes people don't know what to say. And that's what, that's what keeps the conversation from happening. I feel like,

Johnny Crowder: 00:17:25

yeah, I am a big proponent of because a lot of parents contact me. And they're like, What do I do about my son? And I am a big proponent of like, trying to spend time together where you're not talking about mental health at all. Where I remember I was speaking with this one mother who had a kid and she's like, he just won't talk to me about what's going on. I try to get information out and we just won't spit it out. And I asked like, what's, when's the last time that you guys hung out? without you asking about this? Are you just like, spend time together, like you went out to dinner and you didn't bring up anything about what was going on? She's like, Oh, no, I was like taken was he like, and she's like, well, she likes basketball, or he likes basketball. And I'm like, Have you ever taken a new basketball game? And she said now and I'm like, boom, right there. Give it a shot. And don't bring up like Bite your tongue the whole time. You don't even have to talk all that much. You In fact, if you can get him talking about something he cares about, like if my mom would have said, Oh, your shirt despised icon. Is that a band? Okay, what kind of music are they? And I'd be like, Well, I kind of like technical deathcore. They're, they're pretty cool. Where are they from? Oh, Montreal. Oh, that's very cool. Montreal. Have they come here? Yeah, I saw them in in April. And all of a sudden, I'm talking about something that I like with my mom. And it feels like a normal conversation. So if you are a parent, and you can't help but pry, maybe pray about something that they enjoy sharing about, because over time as they're like, I can talk to mom about music and basketball and maybe I can. I'm going through now you need to take those baby steps and start with like, hobbies and interests and maybe work your way up to those more serious conversations once the trust is reestablished.

Deana Brown Mitchell: 00:19:23

Sure. Yeah. That's, that's very valuable information for parents, I think. What would you say about a friend like if you had a friend that you saw was struggling in some way? How would you approach that?

Johnny Crowder: 00:19:39

Inclusion? Almost always, it is, like, do you want to hang out on Thursday, or I'm going to order pizza on Wednesday and we're going to watch Whose Line Is It Anyway or something you got to come over or I'm going on a bike ride or I'm going on a swim or you know, like choosing to include some because it's very easy when you're alone to think that people don't care about you. It's, it's almost like a default if you're really struggling with depression and suicidal ideation. But it's hard to prop that argument up logically. If you keep getting invited to stuff, if you're like, Oh, nobody cares about me, and then your friend text me, your friend text you and they're like, hey, you know, 7pm, we're gonna watch the game. If you want to come over and you're like, son of a gun, I was just convincing myself that nobody cared about me. And here you are, showing me that you care. And over time, it really does wear down that false narrative that you don't matter. invitations, including people it's, even if they say no, every time even if they never respond, when you're

Deana Brown Mitchell: 00:20:48

talking about it's kind of a perfect segue to talk about cook notes when you said, you know, text your friends. So why don't you tell the audience a little bit about Cope Notes, and I'll, I'll put your website up so they can find you.

Johnny Crowder: 00:21:01

Yeah, that'd be great. So Cope Notes, I'll try to keep it short and sweet. And you guys can go to the website if you want to learn more. But coconuts provides daily mental health support via text message. So you can think about it kind of like this. We're interrupting negative thought patterns with text messages that are written by peers with lived experience. So you have your peer support component, you have your positive psychology component. And maybe the best part of this is that it trains your brain to think in healthier patterns over time. So you never have to like consciously make a decision to log into an app or to download anything or for apps to you at random times to train your brain to think unhealthier patterns, and then you can text back, anytime, any day, whatever you want, whenever you want, and use that threat as a digital journal. And it is, it's like a brain training tool with a laser focus on mental and emotional health and it is Impossibly Easy to use. So we do one thing I wanted to mention is we have personal subscriptions. Like if I wanted to sign up, we have gift subscriptions. So if Dino wanted to sign up for kids, and then we have group and enterprise subscriptions, so that's for like universities and school districts and businesses, governments, agencies, places like that,

Deana Brown Mitchell: 00:22:17

it notes is really amazing. I think it's it's not only something that interrupts your day, but it's always a very valuable message. And it's always something that's thought provoking. And I read them every day, at different times, obviously. And they're, they're amazing. So thank you for all of your work and, and making that available to people. And I do also give three months subscriptions to my clients who, and so I've done that a few times. And you know, whether they keep it going or not, I don't always know. But they usually do comment about how much they like it and how much it helps.

Johnny Crowder: 00:23:03

That's know also because it's one thing I didn't mention is it's anonymous, so I didn't know that you were a subscriber. Okay, you know, I never know when people are subscribed or not. So it's so cool. When people say, Oh, I just got my coconuts text. I'm like, I met a real coconut subscriber in the wild. You know, it's awesome.

Deana Brown Mitchell: 00:23:23

I've been a subscriber for like, a year.

Johnny Crowder: 00:23:27

That's so cool. Thank you so much for for the support and for using it. I'm really happy to hear that it's helping and more than that, that clients are actually seeing the benefit.

Deana Brown Mitchell: 00:23:38

Yeah, I've I've given it to at least six or eight people during these two. Cool. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's an amazing tool and resource. And it was funny, because this morning, I was reading something from Sally Spencer Thomas about how you know, it's it's suicide awareness month. And she was saying, you know, we're done with the awareness, it's time to take action. And I was like, That is That is such a good point, which is what we've been preaching for years have the conversation. Because if we don't have the conversation, we're never gonna get to the health part. And it also kind of ties into Cope Notes, because that's action every day. That's helping people. So yeah, I mean, we we do we have to take action. And I think there's more and more people reaching out to me saying, you know, how can we have the conversation because I've been preaching that for so long, and it's like, you know, finding out who they are, what they like, Is it is it a work environment is a family environment? Is it friends, and how can we help them have that conversation or start it? And, you know, I think for I don't know if you remember this, but I after my suicide attempt, I didn't talk about it for 23 years, and I was 27 And so I'm 51 now. And, you know, all of those years in between, I just threw myself into work. Work was my coping mechanism. And so when COVID happened, I didn't have any work. And I didn't really know what to do with myself. So I started the foundation and I started having these conversations, because I'm like, I've I really went inward to figure out why didn't I get help or talk about it for so many years? And it's because nobody made it. Nobody made me feel like it was okay to talk about it. So especially in a business world, where you are a leader, and then when I own my own business, it's like, it's not something that, you know, it's okay for your boss to tell you, Hey, I'm struggling with depression, you know. So, it's, it COVID forced me was a blessing in disguise, it forced me off the hamster wheel and to deal with my own health, and also to try to help others do the same. So

Johnny Crowder: 00:26:05

yeah, I think about, like authenticity and transparency and leadership as maybe a perk of working in the mental health field. Like, for example, if I, you know, was a district manager at Chick fil A, and my perk would be getting lunch every day, and I would freaking love it. Every awesome. Working mental healthier perk is being able to be open about your diagnosis without having to worry about people going, Oh, the CEO has schizophrenia. That's like something that I can say, because of the field that I work in. And hopefully, by the time you know, I can't retire until the level of mental health awareness and cultural acceptance of diagnoses is such that it doesn't matter if you're a manager at Chick fil A, or if you're the CEO, or whatever, you should be able to say that you're living with a diagnosis and have everybody else go Oh, word up. Yeah, my my has that are like, Oh, I read about something like that, that that sounds like it might complicate some things. You know, I can't imagine it mean, it looks like you're coping really well, because you're able to be in a leadership position. But right now, it's sometimes has the opposite effect, where people who don't know if he has schizophrenia, what if he, what if he has a psychotic break during a meeting, and it's like, I've been a CEO for 25 years, and I've never had that, like, what makes you think we just need to kind of disarm those diagnoses. And I do think that it is a perk to work in mental health and be able to say, here's what I live with. And here's what I'm working on, and have your staff and clients go, Oh, I feel that me too. You know,

Deana Brown Mitchell: 00:27:51

yeah, it's true. And it's such a, it's such a 180 for me, because, you know, I was in the hospitality world for 30 years. And, you know, the hospitality world, everyone is overworked and underpaid. It's just, it's just a fact. And so it's normal to skip lunch, because your client needs something. It's normal to work 18 hour days when you're at an event. And, and so, I'm really trying to get a self care message to my former industry. But it's, it's not something that they talk about, which hence why I didn't talk about it. So I feel like that's kind of my mission is to help the people that I've worked with for so many years, and the people in that industry that work themselves to the bone, and don't ever take care of themselves. And so, yeah, it's and you know, that there are people that are struggling, and like me, just hit it. You know, nobody knew that about me. Oh, yeah, my husband. And I traveled so much. And I was like, Well, you know, he's like, I've never seen you be depressed. And I was like, Well, that's because I am on stage all the time. Like, I don't know. And, and like, if I was traveling, and I was in a hotel room in another city, I could not get out of bed and nobody would know. Yeah, you know, but when I was at home, I didn't, you know, he just thought I was tired or whatever. So I think there's there's a lot of signs. Another thing that came up recently in a conversation was that, you know, if somebody comes home from work and normally takes out the trash, just for example, and they start coming home from work, and they're not taking out the trash, like what's going on something's something's not right. Like, not that you should hound them about taking out the trash, but find out what's going on. Because when people's routines change, or their their habits change, there's there's something behind that and a lot of times it is depression or anxiety or PTSD or skeptics or whatever, or whatever, whatever the diagnosis is. So yeah, I think that's important. Do you have any last thoughts you want to share with everyone about suicide prevention month?

Johnny Crowder: 00:30:17

I think there's probably people watching this that have thought, well, I struggled with suicidal ideation. And I was gonna talk about it publicly in the past, but I'll just keep waiting, and you put it off year after year. At least, if you talk about it this month, you can do it under the guise of like, well, it's Suicide Prevention Month, and I did it to support whatever excuse you have to tell yourself to like actually break down that wall and start talking about it publicly. I'm a fan of, I just think if you do it in September, if you stop putting it off, now's a great time to do it. Because I mean, if you look at stigma, as like a graph, like a line graph, there's kind of dips in stigma during like mental health awareness month. And it's easier for me even to justify doing public advocacy during Mental Health Awareness Month or during Suicide Prevention Month, because it's part of the cultural conversation. So my message to you is, stop putting it off, use September as the excuse to justify however you need to justify in your brain to share. And I always say this, come on in the water's fine. Because we get nervous about what's my life going to be like after I share this, probably a lot like it is now you just won't feel the burden of having to look perfect to other people all the time. It really does get easier over time. And I can't imagine the life I would be forced to live if I never shared. So please, open your mouth and talk about it this month, stop putting it off.

Deana Brown Mitchell: 00:31:58

That's a that's a good point. And while actually right, when you started talking about that, I was thinking that how much easier it is for me to talk about now than it was a year ago. Because that first step is so hard. It's hard. And, and I think you know, once you have that first, even sentence out of your mouth, it gets easier doesn't mean the emotions go away immediately and all that but it does get easier, like Danny said, so please, open up to someone you can always reach out to me, you can always just, you know, sign up for a coat notes subscription and somebody will be talking in your ear every day. So, you know, whatever it is you need, feel free to reach out to us. I'll put our website down there again and again. You know, it's all about having the conversation. And whether it's you're struggling or someone around you that you're close to struggling, you know, reach out and ask questions or watch more of our videos of people and different experiences and what they've been through and how they overcame it. And we hope that the education and awareness this month will spike lots of new conversations. So yeah, thanks so much, Johnny for being here. I really appreciate your time and all your wisdom.